[Uncle Fester]

Audi modified the original calliper by putting those bobbins on the back so they must have thought it was the calliper to blame for the squeal.


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[45bvtc]

Nooo. On the Brembo anti squeal pads? ... FFS

 

But looking at past postings, Jmcnamee98; veneergod's not using anti-squeal pads or anti-squeal shims for that matter but Brembo Sports Pads; correct me here if I'm wrong here veneergod and I for one am sorry for you that that low speed squeal is back.

 

I am still using the Brembo/Mitsubishi stainless-steel anti-squeal shims and CeraTEC, however, and with standard Audi brake pads, and ALL remains quiet even over that 200-mile run through Snowdonia last week; just no worries...

 

As for them bobbins - REQILL® Tuned Absorbers - Uncle Fester; I took 'em off as soon as I got my car back from Stafford Audi and the 47i6 upgrade and waited for the low speed brake squeal to return and when it did I re-fitted the bobbins and they made absolutely zero difference - but the Brembo/Mitsubishi stainless-steel anti-squeal shims and CeraTEC did and has for me.

 

Wish it weren't so but there you are, can only report on my own findings...

[45bvtc]

But this low-speed brake-squeal doesn't happen on ALL cars; it didn't with the original brakes, only on some; and even with the 47i6 upgrade it didn't go away with some owners having one, two, three sets of discs, calipers, and pads; and before we go there I know it happens with cars driven normally and those driven as if stolen...

 

If it happens to one car then surely it would be the same for all, or is there another reason?

 

Can't wait to see/hear how the 8V RS3 gets on with them 8-pot calipers and huge brake pads glazing up...

[Uncle Fester]

Could the reason be put down to how the car is used and the mileage ?


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[45bvtc]

Could the reason be put down to how the car is used and the mileage ?


Sent from my iPad Air using Tapatalk

 

As with veneegod I'm tired of going on about this, but:

 

1) I did in 2012 assist one guy in collecting a brand new RS3 from Stafford Audi and by the time he got the car home to Devon he was suffering low-speed brake-squeal.

 

2) Another owner who had a 47i6 upgrade at Stafford Audi got the car back to Manchester (ish) and you've guessed it he was suffering low-speed brake-squeal.

 

3) My own (new car) low-speed brake-squeal started at 1200-miles in the February; I'd been driving October to February: the issue was successfully sorted with Mintex self-adhesive anti-squeal shims.

 

4) My 47i6 upgraded brakes (done in the October 2nd Service) began low-speed brake-squeal at a similar if not the same 1200-miles in the February: the issue was (and is) sorted with the Brembo stainless-steel anti-squeal shims.

 

For me, Uncle Fester, it was interesting that; driving in a similar manner, in the same winter months and similar conditions, and similar mileage, was too coincidental.  I don't know; I really don't know...

[daveb1970]

Its the structure of the suspension being aluminium and the fact that the caliper is right at the ragged edge of its design size that causes the squeal, its NOT the caliper. The caliper is used on a smaller diameter disc with absolutely no issues whatsoever.

 

You can do what you wish to the back of the pads with shims,pad goo, ceratec, witch hazel, yoghurt but it won't change where the caliper is.

 

Im desperately trying for this not to sound like an advert but Its a shame because unlike TTRS owners the RS3 is a real lifestyle choice car with my customers saying they have no plans to sell it. But its the annoyance factor that eventually erodes away at the real pull these cars have with their owners.

 

Its the same with R8's so don't think spending another 30-40k and treating yourself will make you any more sane

 

Upgrade the discs to something smaller more capable, do a rear upgrade to move the numbers about and the problem will go away

 

We can probably get to OEM 8 pots, OEM R8 front pads AP front Disc assembly and a rear upgrade to 335mm for just under £3k for anybody wishing to commit to the car and actually significantly improve the dynamics of the car. Thats a commitment not for the faint hearted but for some  cheaper than spending on 8VRS3 which has the wave discs which myself and lads from AP spent 30 minutes trying to figure out any reason for them and gave up...

[quink345]

Upgrade the discs to something smaller more capable, do a rear upgrade to move the numbers about and the problem will go away

 

spoken like a true salesman

[45bvtc]

Its the structure of the suspension being aluminium and the fact that the caliper is right at the ragged edge of its design size that causes the squeal, its NOT the caliper. The caliper is used on a smaller diameter disc with absolutely no issues whatsoever.

 

You can do what you wish to the back of the pads with shims,pad goo, ceratec, witch hazel, yoghurt but it won't change where the caliper is.

 

Im desperately trying for this not to sound like an advert but Its a shame because unlike TTRS owners the RS3 is a real lifestyle choice car with my customers saying they have no plans to sell it. But its the annoyance factor that eventually erodes away at the real pull these cars have with their owners.

 

Its the same with R8's so don't think spending another 30-40k and treating yourself will make you any more sane

 

Upgrade the discs to something smaller more capable, do a rear upgrade to move the numbers about and the problem will go away

 

We can probably get to OEM 8 pots, OEM R8 front pads AP front Disc assembly and a rear upgrade to 335mm for just under £3k for anybody wishing to commit to the car and actually significantly improve the dynamics of the car. Thats a commitment not for the faint hearted but for some  cheaper than spending on 8VRS3 which has the wave discs which myself and lads from AP spent 30 minutes trying to figure out any reason for them and gave up...

 

So why is it that I can pull my pads (the same for those of others) and apply Copperslip and or CeraTEC and IMMEDIATELY resolve the low-speed brake-squeal issue, daveb1970?

 

NOT saying here that mine is a permanent resolution; ONLY that adding Copperslip and or CeraTEC DOES makes an IMMEDIATE difference!

 

Discussed this many times with the Audi experts; both UK and GmbH, and have never had a rational explanation: so here's an invite to you daveb1970  to explain why "it" won't work'!

 

Do you not ever get fed up with the "it won't work" guys especially those that haven't tried; maybe you have tried the witch hazel?

 

Well sorry (not) daveb1970 to tell you that it bl**dy well does for me and has done for the last 3-years; and it has for a number of others I've helped and most free-of-charge

[daveb1970]

So why is it that I can pull my pads (the same for those of others) and apply Copperslip and or CeraTEC and IMMEDIATELY resolve the low-speed brake-squeal issue, daveb1970?
 
NOT saying here that mine is a permanent resolution; ONLY that adding Copperslip and or CeraTEC DOES makes an IMMEDIATE difference!
 
Discussed this many times with the Audi experts; both UK and GmbH, and have never had a rational explanation: so here's an invite to you daveb1970  to explain why "it" won't work'!
 
Do you not ever get fed up with the "it won't work" guys especially those that haven't tried; maybe you have tried the witch hazel?
 


Well sorry (not) daveb1970 to tell you that it bl**dy well does for me and has done for the last 3-years; and it has for a number of others I've helped and most free-of-charge

Simple answer is I don't know, there's many different variables to cause pad squeal.

It's not really a Oem solution to take the pads out every xxxx miles and put ceratec (not copper slip as we all know it's not compatible with Brembo dust seals).

If it was indeed the magic bullet it's fair to say in your discussions with the experts at Audi UK and GMBH might have saved them a rough estimate of €800,000 on an expensive recall (sincere apologies for being a smart ass)

The clue is in the mass dampeners on the Caliper it's a harmonic damping issue caused by the Caliper being too far out on an aluminium hub on an aluminium bottom arm. I have an aerospace background and in some of the most expensive VIP helicopters they have a similar mass dampener under the passenger seats which is designed to vibrate instead of the passengers

The Caliper is used on three applications, TTRS, Ford GT (Clarkson Variant) and the DB9.

On the smaller disc size (350mm) on both other vehicles there's no issues, it's RIGHT at the ragged edge of what the Caliper is able to do at 370mm on the TTRS3 we tried to use a GL500 disc which has a 375mmx32mm variant just for kicks and grins and I couldn't get pad placement....

@Veneering man

Again fit what you wish and be happy with it, DS2500 will not any noisier than DS2000. My issue is not how long YOU take to stop but the typical internet phenomenon of people mimicking what you do and perhaps not at the same time driving as sensibly as you do.

Consider what you wrote and what you've been advised by ferodo, I have a 190BHP A6 outside that weighs more than my house. By Ferodo reckoning I can fit that compound to an R8 and be safe. If it was as simple as putting less capable pads in the Caliper then Audi would be doing it. They don't as they have a duty of care to their customers and would rather spend €800,000 on an expensive recall than turn down the braking performance as you've done (again whatever floats your boat)

It's unlikely your local tuning company will have the required specific engineering knowledge to fix this, it's also unlikely that Ferodo have the level of engineering expertise answering the phone on a technical helpline.....now before I get jumped on I DONT Have the definite answer, I'm able to act where Audi aren't and we've had some success although we do cater for cars that are generally driven harder.

Let's look at this at the next technical level rather than trying to cure the common cold by carrying a bigger tissue

[daveb1970]

Having had the Brembo Audi oem pads I wouldn't say the Ferodo DS pads are in any way a downgrade

ok you've more pads in stock than I have so you're well experienced I'll leave it to you to concern yourself with whether or not you're qualified, please do 5/6 70-30mph stops and see how you feel about them.....the other issue is that a lesser class of pad will probably be permanently degraded after some serious stopping and you'd never know

You are also very quick to suggest that any company or 'salesman' as you put it, don't have the knowledge to talk about their own products when I call/email them.

If Audi with their resources can't figure it out what makes you think a retailer or anybody less qualified than an OEM can sort it out, you clearly have a desire to have your RS3 without squeaky brakes. I might politely put it to you that you'll be very receptive to anybody who might have a solution for you, how many pads have you tried now 3-4? And still we haven't fixed it. If you want to put lesser brakes on the car put TTS brakes and save some serious money,

You seem very concerned about 'internet phenomenon'

Yes Hugely, after somebody very nearly had a serious accident replacing a master cylinder on a car with an incorrect chassis number for the part discussed, and what about the time I was misquoted from a post going back to 2007 that basically had a whole load of Polo owners fitting porsche rear Calipers with hugely inappropriate piston sizes to the front of their cars wth some dodgy brackets off eBay. It's a huge concern to me, I would urge you to refit OEM pads and accept the fact that it's not pads that's the problem. If you go into the back of another car with Ds2000 pads in will the ferodo telephone bloke be in court to back you up?


Perhaps if you asked the RS 3 OC site owners they'd let you post a definitive 'how to' with the brakes, then no one coming onto this site will be given misinformation by my postings.

I've deliberately avoided touting my wares to remain on topic to discuss the issue of brake squeal

But saying that,you DON'T have the definite answer though, unless we pay 3k then you will have the answer

I never said that, I DONT HAVE THE ANSWER TO THE CHASSIS/DESIGN ISSUES THAT HAVE CAUSED Audi TO SPEND A TRUCKLOAD OF CASH ON THE RECALL I seriously wish I was that technically blessed. I'm not. What we can do is experiment using a few years know how to see if we can improve things, machining a bell to an LMP design and bolting an AP Rotor on it using BTCC bobbin kits is not something Audi can do - we can. Dont forget my products aren't there to prevent squeal, my products are there for track days and race cars, they need the extra heat headroom we provide

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This is sincerely not a personal jibe at you auditioning 3/4 sets of pads to prevent the problem happening. But please consider all the points I've tried to make (badly on occasion) and find anything in there that's unreasonable, it's an Audi design problem and not something fixed by a pad swap out or grease application

[AudiRS3]

I am getting new front OEM pads and discs from Audi at the end of the month.....cant stand the squeal! they have assured me that the new pads and discs will make me squeak free.....Bolton Audi said it fairly confidently as well....I am wondering if they have changed the composition of the pads? I guess there is no way of finding out once they are on the car....but they said if they squeak we will fix it without you having to bear the cost....so win win!! 

 

Will let you know how I get on!  

[45bvtc]

This is sincerely not a personal jibe at you auditioning 3/4 sets of pads to prevent the problem happening. But please consider all the points I've tried to make (badly on occasion) and find anything in there that's unreasonable, it's an Audi design problem and not something fixed by a pad swap out or grease application

 

 

 

CHALLENGE: I don't know you Dave and you don't know me but one things for sure I've discussed this infuriating issue H E A V I L Y with Audi UK and Audi GmbH and whatever they've arrived with didn't work for me and/or others period.

 

What did work for me with the original brakes (Audi FAILED) was a £5 set of Mintex self-adhesive anti-squeal shims: I posted this and the how to so many times the posts have now faded.  And the BREMBO £15 stainless-steel anti-squeal shims for the post 47i6; and for your own, as you commented, information fitted once, CeraTEC once and done with.  PERIOD!  QUIET!  DONE!

 

You, on the other hand, with ALL of you expertise, who ever you are, remain just like Audi GmbH unable to say why this annoying low-speed brake-squeal occurs on some cars and not others.  All you offer is a meg £K alternative that once fitted stuffs any Audi warranty; and I've driven slotted brake discs and know well the pedal feel and noise therein.

 

So the question for you and all of your theory is the same as previously and you failed to answer i.e., why does it occur on some cars and not others?

 

Here's the challenge, Dave; 3-questions to test if your theory is as good as you think it is:

 

Question #1: Why does low-speed brake-squeal occur on some cars and not others?  All have the same components of course.

 

Question #2: What component is it within the braking components that's vibrating and creating the audible low-speed brake-squeal noise?

 

Question #3: Why is it that the low-speed brake-squeal more often than not occurs on the offside brake assembly?  Not forgetting that Audi have modified several times the front air apertures...

 

C'mon Dave, how long does it take: get it right and I may buy something from you though I guess my money's safe for now.

[Duke3D]

Interesting theory Veneergod which may have some relevence. If you still have the thermometer try the same with the rear disks and see if they are similar temps to each other. Presuming you have standard un drilled/ slotted plain discs.

[daveb1970]

CHALLENGE: I don't know you Dave and you don't know me but one things for sure I've discussed this infuriating issue H E A V I L Y with Audi UK and Audi GmbH and whatever they've arrived with didn't work for me and/or others period.

 

What did work for me with the original brakes (Audi FAILED) was a £5 set of Mintex self-adhesive anti-squeal shims: I posted this and the how to so many times the posts have now faded.  And the BREMBO £15 stainless-steel anti-squeal shims for the post 47i6; and for your own, as you commented, information fitted once, CeraTEC once and done with.  PERIOD!  QUIET!  DONE!

 

You, on the other hand, with ALL of you expertise, who ever you are, remain just like Audi GmbH unable to say why this annoying low-speed brake-squeal occurs on some cars and not others.  All you offer is a meg £K alternative that once fitted stuffs any Audi warranty; and I've driven slotted brake discs and know well the pedal feel and noise therein.

 

So the question for you and all of your theory is the same as previously and you failed to answer i.e., why does it occur on some cars and not others?

 

Here's the challenge, Dave; 3-questions to test if your theory is as good as you think it is:

 

Question #1: Why does low-speed brake-squeal occur on some cars and not others?  All have the same components of course.

 

Question #2: What component is it within the braking components that's vibrating and creating the audible low-speed brake-squeal noise?

 

Question #3: Why is it that the low-speed brake-squeal more often than not occurs on the offside brake assembly?  Not forgetting that Audi have modified several times the front air apertures...

 

C'mon Dave, how long does it take: get it right and I may buy something from you though I guess my money's safe for now.

 

Your money is safe. You're asking me to solve a problem that Audi and their chassis techs can't and I wish I was that capable. If I may be afforded an educated guess

 

Q1. Why do some engines fail? they're all made of the same components, all pads are normally the same on production but how you drive has a huge effect on how they perform - especially capable pads that need in service heat to make them serviceable. The way break squeal was explained to me was finger nails down a blackboard theres a number of different variables temperature/dampness/pressure

 

Q2. Its the pad vibrating against the disc or against the caliper or pistonI can't remember whether the pistons are stainless or ali, the spring is supposed to stop it as are the shims on the side of the pad following the upgrade.

 

Q3. Didn't know it was predominately one side, every day is a school day

 

The increase in temperature is due to the fact that as has been stated Audi decided to supply two LH discs to keep parts count down, the numbers mentioned in temp split are what we found when we had two stage 2 TTRS's at Oulton park after a tail chase... both AP assemblies were 100 degrees cooler than the coolest OEM disc.

 

I still think the caliper is in the wrong place, its an integration problem in my eyes. If I wanted to isolate it i'd investigate the following:

 

Swap out the S3/RS3 front uprights for Iron ones from a Mk6 GTI/Rocco

 

If it still occurs

 

Change to the smaller 340mm disc of a TTS with some brackets we have hanging around

 

If it still occurs 

 

Change to some AP disc assemblies

 

If it still occurs

 

Spend some money on some 8 piston calipers and change the rotors to something commensurate

 

If it still occurs - sell the car donate proceeds to RSPCA and shoot myself in the head in the taxi on the way home

Edited by daveb1970, 16 June 2015 - 08:15 PM.

[sawda]

I still don't get it why so many people have problems . I've got the break update, have 22,000 miles on my
car.. drive it both fast and slow.. mainly short journeys but even after a long run never a squeak. I don't say this to rub it in but they is obviously a reason why mine are fine and oem Audi and others have to go suffer... Would drive me nuts too!! Would love to know why , as far as I know I have completely standard set up

[marshy]

Mines nearly got 21k on and had the upgrade done at 8k and I drive fast most of the time doing approx 40 miles a day.
Never had any noise whatsoever?
Very strange why it plagues some and not others?

[T-800]

Your money is safe. You're asking me to solve a problem that Audi and their chassis techs can't and I wish I was that capable. If I may be afforded an educated guess

 

Q1. Why do some engines fail? they're all made of the same components, all pads are normally the same on production but how you drive has a huge effect on how they perform - especially capable pads that need in service heat to make them serviceable. The way break squeal was explained to me was finger nails down a blackboard theres a number of different variables temperature/dampness/pressure

 

Q2. Its the pad vibrating against the disc or against the caliper or pistonI can't remember whether the pistons are stainless or ali, the spring is supposed to stop it as are the shims on the side of the pad following the upgrade.

 

Q3. Didn't know it was predominately one side, every day is a school day

 

The increase in temperature is due to the fact that as has been stated Audi decided to supply two LH discs to keep parts count down, the numbers mentioned in temp split are what we found when we had two stage 2 TTRS's at Oulton park after a tail chase... both AP assemblies were 100 degrees cooler than the coolest OEM disc.

 

I still think the caliper is in the wrong place, its an integration problem in my eyes. If I wanted to isolate it i'd investigate the following:

 

Swap out the S3/RS3 front uprights for Iron ones from a Mk6 GTI/Rocco

 

If it still occurs

 

Change to the smaller 340mm disc of a TTS with some brackets we have hanging around

 

If it still occurs 

 

Change to some AP disc assemblies

 

If it still occurs

 

Spend some money on some 8 piston calipers and change the rotors to something commensurate

 

If it still occurs - sell the car donate proceeds to RSPCA and shoot myself in the head in the taxi on the way home

No need to shoot yourself in the head DaveB.......... at least you don't have an RS 3 with squeal

[45bvtc]

Your money is safe. You're asking me to solve a problem that Audi and their chassis techs can't and I wish I was that capable. If I may be afforded an educated guess....

 

End of for me daveb1970. 

 

My Audi RS3 is one of those that did/has but now doesn't; maybe it was the witch oil after all... 

[45bvtc]

i forgot to mention............

 

I measured the Temperature difference last night with one of those hand held laser/Infrared thingys loaned very kindly to me by a chap near my unit..........

 

I went out gave the brakes some stick shall we say, then pulled over and measured the temps 

 

The drivers side was running 50-60 Deg C hotter than the passenger side, now as a lame man I'm assuming (could be wrong here don't fire me) that this is down to the Drivers side disc running in the opposite direction to the passenger side, which is as i understand, running the correct way in order to allow a 'Vortex' of air to be drawn across/through the disc to cool it.

 

 

Again as I understand it this is the bean counters at Audi not wanting to have these discs made in R/H & L/H 

 

Unlike on the 3.2 TT we have which has L/H & R/H discs with the curved slots both running in the same direction

 

 

That's interesting, Sean; remember these Update-Codes especially 46F8:

 

Brakes Update-Code: 46F8

State: confirmed

Released: 26. Juli 2012

Vehicules: RS3 R5250 DSG, MJ <= 2012

Countires: all

Description: exchange of the front opening right for more air flow to the brakes

 

Brakes Update-Code: 47i6

State: confirmed

Released: 2. April 2013

Vehicules: RS3 und TTRS, alle MJ

Countires: all

Description: on complaint

a) brake caliper and pads: 8P0 698 996

brake disks: 8P0 615 301 B

[45bvtc]

Q2. Its the pad vibrating against the disc or against the caliper or pistonI can't remember whether the pistons are stainless or ali, the spring is supposed to stop it as are the shims on the side of the pad following the upgrade.

 

Dave, just re-reading and here is EXACTLY what I've always thought i.e.' the pad is vibrating against the caliper pistons, period.

 

BUT; the 47i6 upgrade pads did NOT have shims - only the same thin 'soft' coating as was on the original shims and quickly wore through to metal-to-metal contact and there you have the source of the noise: however, the 47i6 do have a cut-out in the backplate which is meant to fit under the upper piston and that made 'em directional BUT unfortunately I've had several cars stripped here where the pads, as mine were, have been fitted incorrectly: it's enough to make a grown man cry that Audi/Brembo can't do it right.

 

Photo of the 47i6 pads (and you can already see that at 1000-miles the pistons are wearing through the ant-squeal pad/cushion and in fact they had some 250-miles later and then out came the Brembo shims and the witch hazel....

 

 

 

NEVER stop learning, as you say; and never grow old...  it's all in the mind....