[booker]

Ok chaps.

Certainly don't want to break up the band of brothers thing going on I respect anybody's right to fit what they want and document it however they see fit.

I'd simply ask you to consider the point I made, do due dil on the products fitted and me if need be.

The TTRS and RS3 are one of their own , it's not long ago to keep up with one of these things even stock you'd have needed an F40 and be ex Pink Floyd to be able to buy one....not just pop down your local dealer and write a cheque out....

Without going really into it, if you consider piston size, pad surface area, system pressure, effective disc radius and pad friction you'll come up with a number in units let's say 10000. The split 7000/3000 we call bias

If you put an unsuitable pad in there which gives you a total number of say 8500 then not only has your total number decreased then the numbers have moved around and the bias is affected say eg 5500/3000

It might have bite, low dust, no squeal etc but your stopping distance and therefore time to reach a desired speed or point on the road will increase not good. And that's first application never mind the 4th/5th stop

DS2000 is not an upgrade to the RS3, the stock pads have been historically DS2500 or Pagid RS4-2-1 with an Audi part number, you can tell by the compound numbers if you know what you're looking for.

Your squeal is caused by the thickness/diameter ratio of the disc and the mass of the Caliper and possibly upright rigidity. Compare a TTRS/RS3 Caliper to a DB9 Caliper. Search Evo forums or Aston forums for squeal issues, I have and you won't find any

It's too heavy too far out at 370mm simply

Apologies for crashing the party at a late stage and going evidently against the grain but we've been looking at these very brakes very empirically and closely for a number of years. Happy to disappear back under my rock....

 

I don't believe it is a question of breaking up any fraternity, rather the manner in which your initial post was phrased and the fact you are a relative newcomer to the forum. We are all interested in finding a solution which resolves any problems of squeaky and/or ineffective brakes on our cars so that we can drive with some degree of confidence in all weather conditions.

 

Your latest post indicates a level of technical knowledge which is way beyond my orbit and you mention that you have been looking at these brakes very closely for a number of years, so perhaps you would be good enough to share your findings on the reasons for the problems and any recommendations you feel may improve the situation. I am particularly interested in any thoughts on pad choice as mine are requiring replacement imminently and I have read both good and not so good comments about Redstuff, Yellowstuff and now Ferodo??

 

It might also be helpful to give us all some personal history and let us know your credentials - in short, why is yours an opinion worth listening to  

Edited by booker, 03 April 2015 - 07:48 AM.

[P_G]

This thread highlights nicely what everybody wants from brake pads once you come off piste and fit different pad materials.

 

Whilst no doubt reg 90 the DS2000 performance pads probably won't be up to stopping an RS3 after 3-4 heavy applications.

 

The RS3 has a dash speed of 130-140 and a top speed of nearer 160-170 is, if you don't regularly drive much over the speed limit and sedately (and yes people do buy these cars and not "use" them) then a lesser material will no doubt suffice.

 

I would advocate caution when recommending them to others who may not drive in the same manner and also mention them to the new owner if you sell it.

 

Dave, you know as well as if not better then most this is not a new issue with Audi, plenty of other RS's suffer the same issue to a lesser or greater degree including the B8 RS4, RS5 and some C7 RS6's hence why you get some of the customers that you do. Unfortunately not all customer can or want to spend £1,000's on new discs so  people like veneeringman and I do the step by step process. There are 5 elements that can be easily changed with greater or lesser expense; brake fluid, pads, brake lines, discs and calipers. You can include brake cylinder but that is getting a bit too complicated. My route is fluid first, pads second, lines 3rd. Fortunately for me at this stage a fluid and pad change has resolved my issues for the time being and EBC yellowstuff along with Ferrodo DS pads are a tried and tested solution on Audi RS cars.

 

I went yellowstuff because I successfully had them on an RS4, a heavier car than the '3 but uses a very similar brake set up / same manufacturer. This was over two years and for general, spirirted and motorway driving they were ideal. Also it was an opportune time to see if veneeringman has simply received a duff set of yellowstuffs because his disintegrated which is unusual despite what one EBC member of staff told him; so far it is appearing that way. Changing pads is cheaper for day to day use than using Loba / AP discs and pads until the OEM discs are used up and an RS3 owner may be in a position to consider a set of Loba instead of OEM. Next is lines because whilst we are talking of fade, the heat going through the brake lines from the fluid would also reduce pressure due to expansion of the lines so if one is stamping on the brakes from 130mph+ regularly or even less than that, lines would be the next mod. 

 

Sharing this information allows other RS3 owners the choice of what they want to do from first hand experience of other owners. I still have my OEM parts as I have with all the mods I have done which I can put back in should whoever buys my car next want it that way.

Edited by P_G, 03 April 2015 - 08:18 AM.

[Uncle Fester]

Sean have you tried sticking bits of wood together and using them as brake pads yet😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄

Edited by DAYTONA-500, 03 April 2015 - 08:45 AM.

[daveb1970]

Ok long post apologies

There's lots of variables in a brake system, Audi can control a lot of them but by no means all.

Its a vibration issue causing the squeal. It just seems to be the perfect storm on the TT never mind the RS3 that has a taller by 10mm disc.

I would say that despite what I've read on here Audi are NOT motivated to fix it, the recall kit will cost them less than £200 in parts for discs Calipers and pads.

It's a combination of the TTrs3 getting a complete alloy front suspension, the caliper being right at the ragged edge of its design disc size, the fact that disc design isn't great.

Changing pads, replacing discs, lines all a waste of time in terms of fixing squeal as I think the problem is deeper seated, the AM Caliper is quite a bit lighter, Audi added a lot of material to the DB9 Caliper to make the RS3 Caliper and its heavy, the car would be better dynamically on a 350mm front disc, we do an adaption kit to fit TTRS Calipers to TTS (solid 340mm disc) and it's good for double the laps that the RS3 discs can achieve on a track day and guess what..... it's quiet on stock pads

As well as running VBT I've got an Aerospace background, the mass dampeners on the back of the Calipers are pretty much the same idea as the mass dampeners that sit under the seat in most corporate VIP helicopters, they're designed to vibrate so that the thing they're attached to doesn't. It's a symptom fixer not a cure

If I had a RS3 that was doing my head in, I'd be thinking out of the box by leaving the brake components alone in the main and poly bushing the front suspension one item at a time and I'd also extend the mass dampeners to make them longer

If that didn't work I'd take some work away from the fronts with a rear disc size increase
If that didn't work I'd investigate using a heavier 375mm disc from another OEM (I'm not advocating increased unsprung weight but I've known guys sell their TTRS/RS3 over this issue) I'd prefer smaller but customers are resistant
If that didn't work I'd think bollox I might as well if I'm going to have squeal but some squeally pads in there and stop much better

Some observations in selling nearly 400 different kits across all similar platforms globally
There is no squeal on using a smaller disc such as the TTS disc on a iron upright
AM using a lighter geometrically identical Caliper on a 350mm disc don't generally have issues
If you do track days which the majority of my customers do then you've no choice, hard utility needs a floating arrangement over 13.5" (343mm in new money) skip the stock discs

Without getting contentious again........

Audi are obviously struggling with this....they know the car intimately probably better than a pad salesman in Stockport who is going to sell you what he/she has on the shelf. Ds2000 is not the way forward. We can advocate polybushing the car, Audi can't without making the ride harder.

It's still a powerful car, notwithstanding the squeal and pedal feel it WILL pull up when asked on stock pads, I'll politely this time advocate BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU FIT, some of the compounds mentioned on here would simply not be suitable for high speed autobahn driving where ze Germans are repeatedly stopping from 140-60.....Redstuff and DS2000 might well have you into the back of that Fiat 500 that didn't check his mirror.....not the first time but probably the 4th or 5th you WILL get fade and have a brown trouser moment. My grammar and post count won't change this

You may say that "I don't drive like that" but Audi need to assume the lowest common denominator in designing the brakes and a lot of guys in Germany do - often

Edited by daveb1970, 03 April 2015 - 09:43 AM.

[Roy]

I dont blame you for not hanging about...who wants to go to Wales anyway !  

[45bvtc]

One question Dave and your view would be most appreciated:

 

Accepting all you've said and complimenting you on the explanations; why is it do you think that some RS3 and TTRS cars suffer low-speed brake squeal and others don't?  

 

In my own experience some cars have low-speed brake squeal from new, some develop brake squeal, and others just don't.  I've had my hands on a fair number of RS3 and TTRS cars and have not been able to reason a difference.

 

For the record my own 2011 RS3 developed horrendous low-speed brake squeal at 1250miles on its original brake parts and again at similar miles following its 47i6 upgrade; and both times I resolved the problem 100% with anti-squeal shims and CeraTec.

 

I look forward to reading your own personal view.

[P_G]

I personally wouldn't polybush an already stiff suspension set up unless you go down the route of changing suspension. As for Audi needing to assume the lowest common denominator, I understand that but would suggest it leads to most of the brake problems because traditionally more of their testing is on Autobahns than round town stop start driving where UKJoe customer spends most of their time which they don't test for. Someone once said RS brakes are oversized / engineered for general use and I tend to agree from personal experience. I wouldn't advocate using red stuff because if EBC thought it applicable they would have sold front pads in the UK and you wouldn't have to import what is a British made pad.

As for Ferrodo, again for road and occasional light track work use they are fine, those that track and live on their brakes there may be longevity issues and your advice would be right. Equally, the RS3 was built from a parts bin to a budget which is why Brembo provided a fairly substandard disc (one direction venting, slotted design poor for cooling) and pads.

Edited by P_G, 03 April 2015 - 11:21 AM.

[daveb1970]

Just some more points of order.

Brembo don't make the discs
brembo don't make the pads
They do make the Calipers. Carrier and pad fitting kit

I'm not suggesting that poly hushing is the holy grail, it's just that there's a chance that something off piste like that might just fix the issue

The fact the Ds2000 are quiet again politely confirms what I've been saying....ALWAYS with brakes, with an increase in performance comes a decrease in comfort, if you reverse that statement you can see why they behave

I could sell you some very quiet pads....they'd have no place in a 350BHP car

[45bvtc]

"the RS3 was built from a parts bin to a budget which is why Brembo provided a fairly substandard disc (one direction venting, slotted design poor for cooling) and pads."

 

 

100% P_G: with the RS3 Audi did exactly what Lotus have done for years (and I've 45-years customer experience of this): raid the parts bin and offer the resulting product to salivating customers for them to 'develop'; it was the end of the 8P production after all.

 

Colin Chapman's remark on seeing a Lotus Europa at the 1971 French Grad Prix was "I never thought they'd get this far". 

 

The RS3 is a GREAT car but it needs to be driven with a degree of humour.

[daveb1970]

The last steel front discs that Audi made which were directional on an RS anything was in 2004, it's an area where they can save a significant amount of money. OEMs are also targeted on parts count so two left handed discs aids and abets

They've also got form for doing stupid stuff the B7 RS4 disc is fairly hopeless and one sided but the rears are directional.

I have disc discussions with R8 owners twice a week

370mm - They are stupidly big on a car that size especially with a 310 rear. 996TT 330mm, DB9 350mm I could go on

The RS3 also has a higher vertical c of g than a TT because it's higher that also puts more pressure on the fronts

[daveb1970]

There's not, in essence you're the median "problem" customer.

if you did a track day once a month or drive the car hard on the road then the Pagid RS4-2 is a great pad but it's bedding in procedure Is difficult to achieve on the road properly and it's important that the customer knows how the pad works and how to get the best out of it.

The DS2500 generally works better on lower energy applications, for heavier cars such as A6 they do a DS2500HP or "plus" pad which we're slowly beginning to believe in. The problem is when you overheat a ds2500 it comes to pieces down the side of your car and won't come back to you where the pagids are fine after a cool down

If you buy new RS4-2 go bed them in on a track day they'll also be very quiet but it's an expensive way of solving the problem

I still maintain that the RS4-2-1 pads which OEM are a good all rounder and "should" tick a lot of boxes on the RS but they don't for external to brake pad reasons.

So Ds2500 are traditionally considered a "quiet" pad and included in all AP Racing brake kits for that very reason to avoid warranty squeal claims, just don't expect too much from them on a track day.

We do a adaption kit to put the TTRS Caliper onto a 362mm AP Disc onto a T5 van, it's been one of our fastest movers and it's as quiet as a church mouse and we use stock pads

There's something going on that's causing the pad to move in the Caliper and cause the squealing and I don't think pad choice is going to solve it, we're looking at mitigating it at best until somebody comes up with a design fix and retrofits it to 30,000 TTRS's and a couple of thousand Rs3s and takes it on the chin cost wise.

Making race brakes - dead easy
Making road brakes - dead easy
Mixing it up - not so much

[45bvtc]

BLUEY's back to standard Audi/Brembo/Pagid/47i6 pads with Brembo stainless-steel anti-squeal shims. 

 

When I first went to EBC Redstuff I was amazed at how good they were and posted likewise: they seemed to resolve all of my issues.

 

However, at the last Stoke Audi meet (arranged by the other Forum) I again drove a selection of Audi cars with Audi standard brakes; and I began to query the fitted (front and rear) EBC Redstuff as: 1) after some 1500-miles that initial 'wonder' bite had gone, and 2) Redstuff were just application noisy; not 'squealy' just 'loud' noisy.

 

Now I've used EBC brake pads for many years on Lotus cars (EBC are the only supplier for rear brake pads for the Lotus Elan, and maybe for other classics too) so am well aware that brake pads from EBC box 'a' may not be the same as pads from EBC box 'b' and/or EBC box 'c'', so lets not go there.

 

From Veneeringman's postings I tried EBC Yellowstuff too but the noise was as if I'd the brake disc in a 3-jaw chuck giving it a 3mm cut without suds: a bit technical for some but you'll get the drift...

 

So back to standard 47i6 plus shims for me, period.  Lots of brake dust (but being retired I have time, with a dash of Flash in the water, amazingly well, to clean 'em) but quiet and effective brakes; and the 4-REQILL® Tuned Absorbers do not journey with the car.

 

For sure EBC Redstuff brake pads did NOT work on our 2.0TFSI TT resulting in a long brake pedal and very poor overall braking: our TT is on STD Audi pads.  Our A2 however is on EBC brake discs and EBC Ultimax brake pads and they work fine; but the A2 is a very lightweight car and with so little mass to 'slow' I guess that even the alternatively proposed (here) wooden friction material would work for a limited period just as well.

 

My RS3 is currently running the Audi 47i6 arrangement with Brembo stainless-steel anti-squeal shims and all is quiet...

[daveb1970]

Designed for day to day use on what? A Naturally Aspirated 180BHP 2002 Subaru Impreza? That uses the same pad is that where it's R90 approval came from, R90 approval and testing is different for different markets, EBC has a lot of its R90 approval from the Far East

Is there a Ds2000 application for the RS3 listed? I'm curious

we have a pad manufacturing facility under my workshop, it really is a bit of a minefield, what you think you see and what you think you get are two different things often.

I get you're happy with the Ds2000 and you've obviously looked into it and done your research - great, I'm only politely and respectfully pointing out that when advocated by you on the forum and subsequently taken up by some 21 year old lottery winner who's just bought an RS3 and is determined to break it so he can get his next one, or alternatively the 45 year old dentist who gets up at 6am on an Easter Sunday who goes out for a very fast blat on his favourite Welsh road before polishing it and putting it away until next weekend.........in both these cases those stopping distances will be longer.

It's also worth mentioning that if you hurt somebody with a less capable pad that isn't listed for your car then are we not as liable as we would have been if we'd have fitted Ds2500 which is promulgated as a track pad (it's awful on track btw)

So damned if we do and damned if we don't

Discuss

[Uncle Fester]

daveb sums it up by saying making race brakes -dead easy ,making road brakes -dead easy ,mixing it up-not so much , imo most people fall into the last catogary so there are going to be some niggles with the brakes .Luckily for us we have the Internet and forums so we are able to read lots of people's views on the subject and we can make a decision which way we want to go ,the RS3 is a great car it's not perfect but it's a lot of fun to drive and it goes like F@@K and I do miss mine.

[Uncle Fester]

Designed for day to day use on what? A Naturally Aspirated 180BHP 2002 Subaru Impreza? That uses the same pad is that where it's R90 approval came from, R90 approval and testing is different for different markets, EBC has a lot of its R90 approval from the Far East
Is there a Ds2000 application for the RS3 listed? I'm curious
we have a pad manufacturing facility under my workshop, it really is a bit of a minefield, what you think you see and what you think you get are two different things often.
I get you're happy with the Ds2000 and you've obviously looked into it and done your research - great, I'm only politely and respectfully pointing out that when advocated by you on the forum and subsequently taken up by some 21 year old lottery winner who's just bought an RS3 and is determined to break it so he can get his next one, or alternatively the 45 year old dentist who gets up at 6am on an Easter Sunday who goes out for a very fast blat on his favourite Welsh road before polishing it and putting it away until next weekend.........in both these cases those stopping distances will be longer.
It's also worth mentioning that if you hurt somebody with a less capable pad that isn't listed for your car then are we not as liable as we would have been if we'd have fitted Ds2500 which is promulgated as a track pad (it's awful on track btw)
So damned if we do and damned if we don't
Discuss

As soon as you change the pads for anything other than stock you are opening up a can of worms ,if you change the pads for a more capable pad that isn't listed for your car and someone runs into the back of you what are the implications are you liable?,

[Muzza80]

Cant say I've had much to complain about with my replacement brakes Audi fitted in November.

 

No squeal at all, good braking, no fade that I've managed to induce on the road so far and that's included some pretty quick "runs" with plenty of hard use of the brakes.  

 

I do find sometimes if I've not had them really hot for a while (just daily driving that I do all week) the bite is not as good as it's been in the past, 5 or 6 - 80mph to 20mph stops (on the motorway at the dead of night usually, very quiet) in quick succession gets them nice and sharp again (after cooling off for a couple of miles)

 

All that said, during a track tuition session at Knockhill, the original set that Audi kindly replaced did start going off after just 4 or 5 "good" laps, soft pedal mostly but that's to be expected, fluid overheating as a result of the poor disc cooling and road pad combo, I've a set of Dave's AP 362mm floating discs and Pagid RS4-2 pads that I'll be fitting in the next few weeks (when I get them back, Dave, any ideas when?) for the "summer" to cover me for the track days I do.

 

Maybe I just got lucky, but as I say, not a peep from them and they're really very good on the road to be honest.

Edited by Muzza80, 06 April 2015 - 11:59 PM.

[matty779blue]

Hi all. Has anyone else had an issue with their calipers warping to the extent that they couldnt get a new set of pads to fit in the caliper?

I have started another thread about it as it is a different issue to that of crap pads/discs. My car has been with Audi for 4 weeks now and I get it back today apparantly fixed.

 

Everyeone initally thought that the floating discs had moved but it turns out it is the caliper that has warped. Audi Germany referred the case to Quattro who after investigating sent out replcament calipers, discs and pads direct to Stansted Audi. The only difference appears to be the fitting instructions. Stansted Audi were asked to fit, bed in the brakes, allow to cool and then adjust the torque settings.

 

This is the second time this has happened to my calipers so I am guessing this is a wider problem and someone else must have had the same issue????

[booker]

And what, pray, may these be?? 

[booker]

Are they specific for the RS3? Will we get the usual comprehensive progress reports in due course??   

[P_G]

Looking good and will be interested to see how you get on with them. Yellowstuff are doing OK so far, have one niggle with them but this may be part of bedding in so keeping them in until at least the end of the month to see if the niggle disappears.