[RS3Dell]

We are building a 700hp+ rs4 b5, so yes more is better Dell 

 

Ben.

 

More speed vicar ! 

 

Dell.

[BenTTU]

After a bit more research and looking at many more graphs and talking to some great RS3 owners, that I may say are very knowledgeable. I have noticed you can not compare the 8p against the 8v pfl, it seems they act very different even from a stage 1 2 tune. 

Here is a couple of graphs with a tte500 mapped by MRC with similar specs. As you can clearly see our hybrid instantly has the advantage low down, and also holds torque really well across the mid range. It does not peak and die off.  There unit at 3krpm is only at 200ps if you compare to our graph at 3krpm we are at 280ps massive difference and must feel insane on the road. Also we hold alot more torque. So i can only imagine driveabilty would be perfect. The last dyno plot is of our turbo.

 

We will be fitting this hybrid to our 8p, so we can compare.

 

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[Fivepotfan]

After a bit more research and looking at many more graphs and talking to some great RS3 owners, that I may say are very knowledgeable. I have noticed you can not compare the 8p against the 8v pfl, it seems they act very different even from a stage 1 2 tune. 

Here is a couple of graphs with a tte500 mapped by MRC with similar specs. As you can clearly see our hybrid instantly has the advantage low down, and also holds torque really well across the mid range. It does not peak and die off.  There unit at 3krpm is only at 200ps if you compare to our graph at 3krpm we are at 280ps massive difference and must feel insane on the road. Also we hold alot more torque. So i can only imagine driveabilty would be perfect. The last dyno plot is of our turbo.

 

We will be fitting this hybrid to our 8p, so we can compare.

Hi Ben,

How about getting a Vbox strapped to the car running your hybrid turbo, this will give more meaningful numbers than the dyno chart debate.

 

I have been out in 8P's with big turbo conversions, run my own PFL car with numerous mods to stage 2 by MRC and have driven my friends car also with a stage 2 MRC tune. All of them have impressive dyno sheets with big torque figures (the 8P being the highest incidentally) but all of them drove differently. My car was like a crazy thing with instant go, my friends was super smooth and one of the fastest 1/4 mile times by a daily driven UK car and the 8P pinned you to the seat during any in-gear acceleration.

I think what I am trying to say here is that each of us has a different perspective as to what makes a 'better' or 'faster' car. To some it may need to be the best drag strip hero, others may want drive-ability or maybe just even some pub talk dyno numbers. And here lies your issue. Most will make a decision of buying a certain conversion or performance upgrade based purely on the claims of the peak numbers achieved regardless of how they would like their car to drive.

The Vbox is probably the only way to find a common ground (benchmark).

[BenTTU]

To be honest, the v box is our next step.

[Shaunee]

With the greatest respect it's not all about hp! We have got 760nm the highest by far on 99ron. Do you think a 530ps car with 680nm is going to beat this?? I think not

Very nice figures!

It’s not all about torque though imo. It’s about the right powerband for the intended use and overall setup.

High torque figures can be great, but when it’s in the mid range it has a specific benefit. It’s great if you punch it in any gear lower down. However, if you’re gunning it through the gears mid range torque is a moot point. It’s all about the power in the upper rev band.

With a DSG (in auto) I think that mid range torque is even less of a benefit. Stamp the throttle and the box will change down to get them revs up.

It’s horses for courses obviously.

Anyway..... I really look forward to see how you get on with further work!

[RS3Dell]

Top end power is great for flat out use but you can't beat good old mid range torque for really world driving & not having to look for rev's all the time eg in the wet or over taking by having to bang down gears.

 

What will drives you out off a corner/roundabout better torque or power ?

 

Torque = Acceleration.

 

Power = Top speed.

 

Dell.

Edited by RS3Dell, 12 May 2018 - 08:50 AM.

[Shaunee]

Depends how you drive. I prefer to use the gearbox and upper rev range.

If you want a torquey, lazy drive.... get a diesel. This is an RS..... drive it like this 2.5 deserves.

Seriously though.... like I said it really is horses for courses, and individuals needs and wants will vary.

[BenTTU]

Shaunee 

 

The tfsi engine is basically a diesel, hence why they have so much torque!

Also the kick down is just part of an auto box,  personally if you had a real play with your car or understood power curves and sweet spots, you wouldnt ever use the kick down and put it straight into manual mode. 

 

Also high rpm in any turbo car is pointless, as its boost has died. If you have no boost you have no torque and that means no hp.  

 

Useable constant power is key, and also understanding how an engine works is also key. Stating mid range torque is a lesser benefit is just silly, if you have no mid range torque you have no hp.

 

Ben 

[Shaunee]

Ben,

 

The 2.5 has good torque probably because it has 2.5 litres and 5 cylinders. 

 

I know a fair bit about power curves.... have a look at my project thread. 

 

High rpm is not "pointless" on a turbo car..... if it were pointless I would be changing gear at 5k rpm, but I know what that would do..... kill my acceleration and performance times.  You don't just utilise boost to make power.  Different tuners use different methods.... there is ignition as well.      

 

I definitely didn't say that mid range torque is a lesser benefit.  Please read what I said again. 

 

We all have opinions bud and you seem to be taking exception to what I have said.  

 

Anyway..... it's a nice sunny day and we shouldn't be sat on a keyboard! 

[RS3Dell]

Depends how you drive. I prefer to use the gearbox and upper rev range.

If you want a torquey, lazy drive.... get a diesel. This is an RS..... drive it like this 2.5 deserves.

Seriously though.... like I said it really is horses for courses, and individuals needs and wants will vary.

 

Your RSs power which if i remember right was lower than other peoples tuned 8v yet your torque curve was flater,was that the secret behind the 11.5 sec 1/4 you posted at the Pod not bhp ?

 

Dell.

[BenTTU]

I think you miss understood, going from 5th to 3rd with your kick down is pointless for a turbo car, you need load to build boost.

 

Look at all TFSI engines, then you will know what I am talking about with torque.

 

Tuners do work different and it's simple the rite way and the wrong way, no inbetween!  And just so you know, you get your boost levels rite then you play with timing! If you do not utralise your boost levels first you will end up with over boost which is a pain to resolve and end up back tracking. 

 

I have made an exception because I have been doing this far to long now to know when some 1 has listened to crap or spent to much time on Wikipedia.

 

State facts not your opinion, things like it's a 2.5 maybe that's why torque is high, well no! Maybe it's because it's cam duration vs direct injection vs compression ratio. 

Edited by BenTTU, 13 May 2018 - 07:38 PM.

[Shaunee]

Your RSs power which if i remember right was lower than other peoples tuned 8v yet your torque curve was flater,was that the secret behind the 11.5 sec 1/4 you posted at the Pod not bhp ?

Dell.

BHP was up there tbh (450 on stock blower for those times) torque was very flat though through the mid range. No point over working the blower in the mid range imo, tends to mean they run out of puff in the higher rpm range and power can fall off.

Personally I prefer a high ignition map over a heavy boost map. Makes the engine very responsive as you get on the gas in my experience. Due to the size of the 2.5 you’re never short of torque, so the engine pulls well regardless.

There are several ways to skin a cat (setup / map a car).

[Shaunee]

Lol Ben. That’s a nice aggressive attitude you have there.

If you think I’ve just read stuff online and not done this first hand that’s your opinion. You are of course welcome to it.

Like I said... good luck with your project.

I’ll see you on the drag strip or performance event. We can then see whether or not I know what I’m on about then. Until then I’ll look forward to seeing more of your dyno graph comparisons.

[RS3Dell]

BHP was up there tbh (450 on stock blower for those times) torque was very flat though through the mid range. No point over working the blower in the mid range imo, tends to mean they run out of puff in the higher rpm range and power can fall off.

Personally I prefer a high ignition map over a heavy boost map. Makes the engine very responsive as you get on the gas in my experience. Due to the size of the 2.5 you’re never short of torque, so the engine pulls well regardless.

There are several ways to skin a cat (setup / map a car).

 

 

Correct me if im wrong but more boost is more air + fuel = more power ?

At high rpm the air is limited by how much the turbo can pump ?

 

Dell.

[BenTTU]

Aggressive???

 

Timing with no boost ???? 

 

as I said it's no understanding thats the funny bit. 

 

Happy to see you down the drag strip, what would you like me to bring ? 500hp rs4? 600hp rs4? 535hp meth s4? Or the 750hp rs4 that will be ready in a couple of months?? 

Edited by BenTTU, 13 May 2018 - 08:04 PM.

[RS777]

I get there are some improvements to be made with ignition timing, but correct me I’m wrong but I’ve always thought it’s optimised for the tune and any hardware and boost increase? I thought that tunes without boost increases would be on par with normally aspirated cars which are lucky to get above 5%, without hardware or fuel increases (bigger carbs / throttle bodies).

With WMI I understand you can alter the timing as a safety feature but isn’t this also to be able to run increased boost with less risk of knocking?

[RS3Dell]

BHP was up there tbh (450 on stock blower for those times) torque was very flat though through the mid range. No point over working the blower in the mid range imo, tends to mean they run out of puff in the higher rpm range and power can fall off.
Personally I prefer a high ignition map over a heavy boost map. Makes the engine very responsive as you get on the gas in my experience. Due to the size of the 2.5 you’re never short of torque, so the engine pulls well regardless.
There are several ways to skin a cat (setup / map a car).

Well if your saving your turbo in the mid range for top end power I don't think that strategy has work due to your top end figures not being if any better then others.

Also at the Pod last year were you did 2 runs against Brian & Steve then F off home with the raging hump,You could only pull an 11.8 sec against there 11.7 sec same track same tyres same day !
Dell.

Edited by RS3Dell, 14 May 2018 - 12:09 PM.

[Shaunee]

Dell,
Feel free to pose these questions on my project thread where I will be pleased to answer in as much detail as you or anyone else requires. That is what that thread is there for after all.

It wouldn’t be right for us to continue this conversation on someone else’s project thread.

[T-800]

I actually enjoy reading Ben's thread 

 

A professional who is in the business and can offer a proper insight into how building and tuning an engine is done.

[RS3Dell]

I actually enjoy reading Ben's thread

A professional who is in the business and can offer a proper insight into how building and tuning an engine is done.

I went to Ben's open day & found him down to earth,friendly & not full off it & going by the B5 RS4 clientele turn out very well thought off.😊

Dell.

Edited by RS3Dell, 18 May 2018 - 08:36 AM.