[MrNoisy]

Okay so I’ve read multiple useful threads on here about the brake squeal issues with the 8V shape and what has been tried and tested.

Having owned my RS3 for 3 months now I’ve experienced the squeal issue badly - do a lot of short journeys - and also I’m less than impressed with the braking ability on OEM pads and wavy discs. At high speed a hard brake is dismal I couldn’t believe how poor the response was.

The car is due a service and so I’m going to have the haldex oil and filter and engine oil changed (done 25k) just so I have a starting point. It also needs two new rear tyres soon and I’ll be looking at MPSS or P4S’s...however...

Having looked about re brakes it looks like I can conclude that:
1. The wavy disc design is flawed from being non directional
2. The OEM pads are ****.

I’ve had several brands of pads in the past - PFZ, EBC blue stuff, DS2500 etc.
I’m considering going the whole hog and buying the Reyland floating discs (standard size) with some pads that compliment it on OEM callipers which look like they should be up to the job. Having tried DS2500’s I wasn’t all that impressed given the price so am thinking of trying blue stuff. Personally I wouldn’t go less than this having tried yellow stuff previously on an Impreza.
I ran blue stuff pads on a 6 pot K sport big brake kit and couldn’t really fault them they were always very good from cold and stopped the car very well.

Anyone had this combo or experienced blue stuff or reylands on the car?

Should I just try blue stuff with new OEM round discs? There don’t seem to be huge numbers of options which is surprising. All advice gratefully received. Cheers

Edited by MrNoisy, 08 February 2019 - 11:09 PM.

[Hal]

Squeal and braking effectiveness are two different issues.

 

Squeal is all about eliminating the high frequency vibration between two metals. Effectiveness is all about finding a good pad/disc combination.

 

There is a current thread on one of the sections all about Reylands, and several more before on APs, Tarox etc. Wavey discs should be good for road use.

 

There does not seem to be one single cure for squeal, but it seems a very much subjective thing. The two cures that tend to top the list are DS or Red Stuff pads. I have wavey discs front and rear all with Red Stuff pads and frequency dampers on the front calipers - zero noise and effective on the road.

[T-800]

Squeal and braking effectiveness are two different issues.

Squeal is all about eliminating the high frequency vibration between two metals. Effectiveness is all about finding a good pad/disc combination.

There is a current thread on one of the sections all about Reylands, and several more before on APs, Tarox etc. Wavey discs should be good for road use.

There does not seem to be one single cure for squeal, but it seems a very much subjective thing. The two cures that tend to top the list are DS or Red Stuff pads. I have wavey discs front and rear all with Red Stuff pads and frequency dampers on the front calipers - zero noise and effective on the road.

You are in the minority with liking the Redstuff pads I think.

Utter garbage.


As an experiment I’ve tried the DS pads with the Reylands = no squeal

I’ve tried the TRW with the Reylands = no squeal

In my opinion it’s always been the fact the Audi OEM discs of wavy/round/square/hexagonal etc etc shape are the root cause.

Edited by T-800, 09 February 2019 - 10:08 AM.

[Fivepotfan]

The brakes on the RS3 8V are probably the most discussed subject on any forum. The stock wavy discs on the PFL car were pretty poor if you drove the car to it's full performance capability (discs would quickly overheat and fade and the dreaded squealing would start after around 4K miles of ownership). Audi then changed the discs to a round version and a similar design was then carried over onto the FL car. The round discs were an improvement over the wavy design, the round OEM ones on my FL car were actually not too bad and held up much better than the stock brakes on my PFL car.

 

Like many other RS3 owners I went down the route of swapping out different pads to try to improve fade resistance and get rid of the hugely annoying and embarrassing low speed brake squeal. It soon became clear that fitting a brake upgrade was the best option to make the car so much more enjoyable to drive.

 

For my PFL car I fitted the Revo/Alcon big disc upgrade. I made the mistake of fitting Redstuff pads and nearly ruined the discs, if you drive your car to it's full potential (and I don't mean just a quick spirited bit of acceleration) I would warn anyone against fitting these pads to an RS3. They may cure the squeal and be fine for 80% of the time, but when you begin to use the last 20% the Redstuff pads will cook your discs. I ran the Revo/Alcons discs with Ferodo pads for 15K miles and they were really good. Defo a worthwhile mod.

 

For my FL car I was going to fit the Revo/Alcon's again but found (via T-800) that the alloy bells were a different offset (4mm difference). I ended up getting Reyland to make me a set of 380mm x 34mm two piece curved groove floating discs with directional cooling vanes. I initially ran these with the Ferodo DS Performance pads but the brake feel was not quite right. Pads were then swapped for the DS2500 (recommended by Reyland) and the brakes are now fantastic.

In hindsight, I actually think the 370mm diameter two piece grooved discs that Reyland offer as a direct upgrade are plenty good enough for fast road use and £200 cheaper than the 380mm. Both Reyland and Revo discs are lighter than the stock Audi disc (I have weighed them if anyone is interested)

Some pics below.

 

Reyland 380mm x 34mm two piece curved groove discs

 

 

REVO/Alcon 380mm disc at 15K miles use next to the new Reyland disc

 

 

 

 

 

[MrNoisy]

Thanks for the replies guys. Not for one moment would I consider fitting red stuff pads to any vehicle with more than 200bhp, having experienced yellow stuff on a 250bhp car it must be truly terrifying if you actually use the power the RS3 has on red stuffs lol.

After your comments re Revo and Reyland,
I think I may give the Reyland standard size two piece discs a shot together with some blue stuff or Ferodo pads.
If the combo offers better braking, less fade and zero squeal it’s a win win for me.
One question - did you remove the calliper damping weights or whatever the official term for them is after fitting the reyland/Revo discs and pads?
I understand they’re quite heavy in themselves so if they’re unnecessary I’ll bin em.

Cheers

Edited by MrNoisy, 09 February 2019 - 09:18 PM.

[T-800]

Thanks for the replies guys. Not for one moment would I consider fitting red stuff pads to any vehicle with more than 200bhp, having experienced yellow stuff on a 250bhp car it must be truly terrifying if you actually use the power the RS3 has on red stuffs lol.

After your comments re Revo and Reyland,
I think I may give the Reyland standard size two piece discs a shot together with some blue stuff or Ferodo pads.
If the combo offers better braking, less fade and zero squeal it’s a win win for me.
One question - did you remove the calliper damping weights or whatever the official term for them is after fitting the reyland/Revo discs and pads?
I understand they’re quite heavy in themselves so if they’re unnecessary I’ll bin em.

Cheers

Mine were taken off and now reside on a shelf in the garage.

[Fivepotfan]

Thanks for the replies guys. Not for one moment would I consider fitting red stuff pads to any vehicle with more than 200bhp, having experienced yellow stuff on a 250bhp car it must be truly terrifying if you actually use the power the RS3 has on red stuffs lol.

After your comments re Revo and Reyland,
I think I may give the Reyland standard size two piece discs a shot together with some blue stuff or Ferodo pads.
If the combo offers better braking, less fade and zero squeal it’s a win win for me.
One question - did you remove the calliper damping weights or whatever the official term for them is after fitting the reyland/Revo discs and pads?
I understand they’re quite heavy in themselves so if they’re unnecessary I’ll bin em.

Cheers

I removed the damper weights from the calipers while I was fitting the Reyland discs but ended up re-fitting them after I started hearing just the faintest little low speed chirp from the brakes after some hard use. There is now zero noise from pads or discs.

Regarding weight....the dampers on their own are quite chunky and weigh close to 2kg. For other weight related info I have included comparisons for each of the discs below.

 

The four damper weights which are attached to the caliper...

 

The used REVO/Alcon 380mm disc ......at 10.6kg

 

The stock 370mm Audi disc.... at a hefty 13.5kg

 

The Reyland 380mm disc ....at 11.5kg

[Hal]

You are in the minority with liking the Redstuff pads I think.

Utter garbage.


As an experiment I’ve tried the DS pads with the Reylands = no squeal

I’ve tried the TRW with the Reylands = no squeal

In my opinion it’s always been the fact the Audi OEM discs of wavy/round/square/hexagonal etc etc shape are the root cause.

You mean utter garbage in your opinion, yes?

 

Why would the wavy disc , or any other disc for that matter, be the problem causing brake squeal?

[Hal]

 Not for one moment would I consider fitting red stuff pads to any vehicle with more than 200bhp, 

Cheers

Why?

 

The bhp of a motor is not being braked. It is the weight of the car that is being braked. A 200hp Audi A3 can reach 150kph just the same as a 400hp version. As both are the same weight, the work for the brakes is the same - stopping an A3 from 150. I cannot see your logic that a certain pad will be ok to do the same work on a lesser powered or higher powered car of the same size.

 

(I am talking legal road conditions and not track which is a whole different ball game)

 

Just interested.

[T-800]

You mean utter garbage in your opinion, yes?

Why would the wavy disc , or any other disc for that matter, be the problem causing brake squeal?

Ok then why did the FL car I had from new with it’s improved discs, suddenly out of nowhere start to squeal after 5K miles ?
Discs and pads were taken off deglazed put back on, no improvement

Brand new items below were fitted

DS pads = squealed
Ferodo Premier = squealed
TRW Pads = squealed


Reyland discs bought and fitted with Delphi pads = silence

As an experiment I fitted the list of above pads to see if they squealed with the Reylands, result ? No squeal off any of them (I ran them on the car a full week each) yet when any of the above listed pads were fitted using the oem discs they pretty much squealed within a day or so.

So you tell me, why wouldn’t it be the OEM discs ?

Edited by T-800, 11 February 2019 - 06:37 AM.

[Quattro]

My pfl car running wavy discs squealed like mad with oem pads.
I replaced them with Ferodo DS pads which were worse than oem for squeal.
Fitted the anti squeal shims and had no hint of squeal for 5k.
Just goes to prove everyone experiences different outcomes and drives and uses their brakes differently.


I should add, when my discs are due replacement I would want the wavy discs again mainly for the looks.

Edited by Quattro, 11 February 2019 - 08:08 AM.

[T-800]

My pfl car running wavy discs squealed like mad with oem pads.
I replaced them with Ferodo DS pads which were worse than oem for squeal.
Fitted the anti squeal shims and had no hint of squeal for 5k.
Just goes to prove everyone experiences different outcomes and drives and uses their brakes differently.


I should add, when my discs are due replacement I would want the wavy discs again mainly for the looks.

Brakes are a very subjective thing agreed.

What suits one person may not suit someone else.

I can only go off my experience with Redstuff

However I do believe there are other RS3 owners who feel similar about them.

[Hal]

So you tell me, why wouldn’t it be the OEM discs ?

 

Because of what squeal is. Squeal is the high frequency noise produced from two objects being allowed to vibrate or stick and slip against each other. 

 

This noise will therefore be coming from the metal to metal contact of the pad backing plates within the caliper or against the metal pistons. This is a physical fact and one that manufactures (outside Audi?) strive to solve. There are numerous academic papers on the subject.

 

Now, it could be that hard pad material could vibrate against a disc face, but this would have to be at an extremely slow speed. Anything beyond a slow walking pace the pad material will be well compressed on the metal face - which is why brake squeal does not happen when braking hard as the metallic components of the pad back plate, caliper guides and pistons are in so much compression, there is no chance of vibration. But once slowed down, the backing plate has the opportunuty to vibrate.

 

This is not me, this is the industry and academic explanation.

 

I have no anser why one disc alone would answer the squeal problem. There could be a reason, but not one that I have ever read about.  I can though see a disc answering the other issue of feedback through the pedal, sometimes called warping - a whole different subject and one where oem products might well be the root issue.

[T-800]

Because of what squeal is. Squeal is the high frequency noise produced from two objects being allowed to vibrate or stick and slip against each other.

This noise will therefore be coming from the metal to metal contact of the pad backing plates within the caliper or against the metal pistons. This is a physical fact and one that manufactures (outside Audi?) strive to solve. There are numerous academic papers on the subject.

Now, it could be that hard pad material could vibrate against a disc face, but this would have to be at an extremely slow speed. Anything beyond a slow walking pace the pad material will be well compressed on the metal face - which is why brake squeal does not happen when braking hard as the metallic components of the pad back plate, caliper guides and pistons are in so much compression, there is no chance of vibration. But once slowed down, the backing plate has the opportunuty to vibrate.

This is not me, this is the industry and academic explanation.

I have no anser why one disc alone would answer the squeal problem. There could be a reason, but not one that I have ever read about. I can though see a disc answering the other issue of feedback through the pedal, sometimes called warping - a whole different subject and one where oem products might well be the root issue.

Hal I’m fully aware of the scientific explanation is of brake squeal.

However I’ve found things a little different in my exploits.

On my 8P I experimented with every pad under the sun.
Only pads I found to not squeal were the Ferodo DS performance, I was also told the same by a supposed brake ‘expert’ on this very forum that the DS weren’t suitable for a 300+ HP RS3.
Yet the fact remained the DS worked.

Fast forward to my 8V PFL.
Squeal started again after a few months of ownership, cure ? Ferodo DS pads and it never squealed after fitting those in 18 months of me owning it.

I will point out this......the pads above were ‘dry’ fitted in both cars with no shims because that’s how they came.

So the science of the pad vibrating against pistons / caliper thus causing the squeal didn’t apply in the cars above.

On my FL car it made zero difference having Shims/no shims / dry / greased etc...... nothing worked.

[Hal]

I totally hear what you are saying. This is not the only place where there appears to be as many solutions to the issue as there are posts. On your experience and others, my fix was quite simple - leave the waves on and fit Redstuff with the guides well greased. Not a chirp. Cheap in comparison.

 

I just had to take something to a town 25kms away and was thinking if perhaps your pads have been incompatible with previous rotors thus depositing high spots on the disc that might contribute to squeal and the compound of Reyland is better suited leaving a flatter surface. I do not know. Only a thought where there is no other!

 

I even got thinking about brake usage. The town I just came back from is a distance of 25kms - I pass through three roundabouts, a small village with a speed bump and a stop sign. Including my final stop in the garage, I applied the brake 9 times, all just a slow down pedal, one hard stop for a dog and soft stop for a road sign. Put my fingers on the disc when I got home. Barely warm!  We have longer distances of open road with minimal twists and bends. In the same vein, I can get onto a motorway here and go to Spain without touching the brake once if I am mindful of speed and use the drive through toll gates. You on the other hand have the overcrowded M25 where you are constantly on the brakes. So I wonder how much this even contributes to the overall question?

 

I still have lots of material on the pads even after 40k kms, but it is in the back of my mind when the day comes, to try the Ferodo pads as they do seem to have best reports - but with mine being so perfect, maybe just carry on as is! Like Quatro avove, I would like to keep the waves as it is a quirky little extra to the car.

[robokn]

Thinking of sorting brakes out next, looking at the reland option floating front and rear, yes I know not much on the rear

however do like a bit of OCD, and DS2500 pads.  So my REVO discs will be up for sale very cheap and will be machined to

be prefectly 'flat'.  Does anyone know if Reylands 355 rear is the same as RS7 that Tom Wrigley sells as dont want to buy

whole new rear kit.

[RS3Dell]

Thinking of sorting brakes out next, looking at the reland option floating front and rear, yes I know not much on the rear
however do like a bit of OCD, and DS2500 pads. So my REVO discs will be up for sale very cheap and will be machined to
be prefectly 'flat'. Does anyone know if Reylands 355 rear is the same as RS7 that Tom Wrigley sells as dont want to buy
whole new rear kit.

Speak to Tony or Martin at Reylands about making a replacement 355mm/RS7 rear discs using your existing brackets to match the fronts your looking at replacing.

Dell.

Edited by RS3Dell, 11 February 2019 - 04:13 PM.

[robokn]

Hi Dell, I did speak to them they need my discs or copies to ensure all matches up, may do this when it 

gets it new hybrid  As wont be far from them at all

[MrNoisy]

Why?

The bhp of a motor is not being braked. It is the weight of the car that is being braked. A 200hp Audi A3 can reach 150kph just the same as a 400hp version. As both are the same weight, the work for the brakes is the same - stopping an A3 from 150. I cannot see your logic that a certain pad will be ok to do the same work on a lesser powered or higher powered car of the same size.

(I am talking legal road conditions and not track which is a whole different ball game)

Just interested.

The point I was making was simply that they were unfit for purpose for stopping a heavy car capable of high speeds in a short space.
The higher the speed the car is capable of the more dangerous they become if the pad isn’t up to the job, especially given the RS3 can reach those speeds significantly quicker than the average TDI, so you need something to stop it quickly and reliably too.

The yellow stuffs I had quickly overheated after just 3 bends with a bit of hard braking after which time pedal went spongy as hell.
That was with braided lines, Motul dot 4 race fluid and a set of 4 pot calipers so god help you if you do a spirited drive and happen to need to slam the anchors on in a hurry in a car that weighs 200kg more than the one I was driving at the time!

The standard A3 you cite as an example would still have the same issue - unless you drive it like Miss Daisy, then if you go for a spirited drive and choose to use the brakes to shave off a good deal of speed before the bend (and just to be clear here I don’t mean gradually, I mean hard) you’ll find after a few bends that the red stuff won’t bite and you’ll be in a hedge / ditch.
Now we could get all condescending and say well you should judge speed better and slow down gradually but - no, sorry rubbish - if I can spend what’s nearly M3/C63 money on a family sports hatch then it should bloody well be able to have the same braking ability as those 2 - have owned both. The Audi isn’t close, it’s pretty frightening tbh!

Edited by MrNoisy, 11 February 2019 - 09:51 PM.

[Hal]

mmm! I think you need to revisit the theory of kinetic energy

 

An A3 propelled by 200hp to 50 has the same KE as an A3 propelled by 400hp  to 50. It does not matter if one A3 hits 50 sooner or later, the braking requirement is exactly the same.

 

Only will the A3 with the 400hp motor need increased braking is at the point where the maximum KE is reached by the 200hp version. 

 

I suggest that you revise your argument a bit for the future and concentrate more on the KE overlap and the need to use the brakes more often that potentially invites fade which can be overcome with larger brakes and/or specialist pads.